The following is a rough transcript which has not been revised by The Jim Rutt Show or by Tyson Yunkaporta. Please check with us before using any quotations from this transcript. Thank you.
Jim: Today’s guest is Tyson Yunkaporta. One of my favorite people I’ve just had so much fun reading his stuff and talking to him. Tyson is an academic and a researcher who was a member of the Apelech Clan in far Northern Queensland. That’s in Australia for you, geographically clueless, yanks. He carves traditional tools and weapons, and also works as a senior research fellow in Indigenous Knowledges at Deakin University in Melbourne. Whereas he is the founder of the indigenous knowledge systems lab. He lives in Melbourne and is the author of Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World. Welcome back Tyson.
Tyson: Hey, hey.
Jim: It’s great to have you.
Tyson: Good to see you.
Jim: Before we move on, Sand Talk, goddamn it! If you haven’t read it, read it. I read it about 10 months ago and it’s still the best goddamn book I’ve read since then.
Tyson: The best a skinny ass book I think you…
Jim: Yeah. It is pretty skinny.
Tyson: Is as skinny as [inaudible 00:01:07].
Jim: Yeah. Unlike your ass and my ass, it’s skinny, right? For those who were obsessed for audio only, you can’t tell it Tyson and I are on video today and we’re both what we might call full-figured fellows, I suppose. But the book itself is a thin and it’s also very readable and it’s a lot of fun. Tyson’s been on our show three times before EP65 and 66, where we really dig pretty deeply into Sand Talk. And then on Currents number 10, where we talk about one a Tyson’s ideas, which has become one of my favorite ideas, which is Humans as Custodial Species for the Planet. Today we’re just going to check in and talk about a little this and a little that. So how you doing?
Tyson: Yeah, I’m doing all right. But your recommendations have sort of plunged me into a world that I have no compass for. So I’m going to need some help. You’re going to have to counsel me through this. I’m rudderless here. I’m rudderless I need some rud. You’re going to have to throw me an empirical lifeline. I’m just swimming in this quantum soup of relativism and it’s just not helping me. So it’s just these endless line of like I don’t know, it’s all these rich people sort of going. Can you tell me some ancient wisdom to help me make the world more fair and sustainable, but where I get to keep all my shit. You got anything for that? I’m like I don’t know, man.
Jim: Probably not.
Tyson: I’m just a boy. Just a boy standing in front of an oligarch, asking for some money.
Jim: The only thing I can say about that is it’s probably better that they asked that question then that they don’t. Despite its internal inconsistency and cluelessness at least they seem to have the smell that may be the jig is up. But they erroneously believe that somehow they’re exempt to the coming transition it would be the way I would, I react to that.
Tyson: Yeah. That’s an easy thing to judge people on, but then all of this emergent field that we’re in that doesn’t have a name, this complexity thing that covers so many different areas. It’s a bit out of my pay grade in a lot of ways. I feel like I’m Borat sometimes like I’m just walking around and people are being very polite to me, but I haven’t really got a clue what’s going on.
Jim: That’s bullshit and you know it.
Tyson: I do feel like Borat.
Jim: Yeah. What do they call that? Imposter syndrome. Actually Tyson knows that shitload, in his book and in our conversations and in a very curious essay, he just sent me he knows more than he passes up.
Tyson: Well, I’m getting paranoid about these machine elves now. Too much Silicon Valley people I’m talking about the machine elves.
Jim: No what are machine elves? I ought to be knowing about that.
Tyson: You heard about that? They’ll tripping balls and seeing these machine elves.
Jim: Oh, DMT motherfuckers. Yeah. The little green men, all that shit.
Tyson: Yeah. Do not mess about these things now. It’s terrifying.
Jim: It’s all in their fucking head. These people are whack jobs.
Tyson: So is this mass hysteria or what? How are they all seeing the same goddamn things at the same time?
Jim: Yeah, that’s very interesting. I’ve had a conversation about that on the show actually. And I’m going to have another conversation about it soon. My view is it’s very similar to the UFO phenomenon where one person sees a UFO, guess what? Suddenly everybody sees a UFO. We had a similar thing here in our very rural Mountain County, about four or five years ago where one person claimed they’d seen a mountain lion there haven’t any mountain lions here at least 100 years. And next thing you know, everyone’s been seeing them out lion.
Jim: The first question I’d ask is how many bobcats have you seen in your life? Bobcat is a smaller, wild cat that we do have around here. I’ve actually seen one but they’re very wary and mostly nocturnal and you know, 30 years I’ve seen one bobcat. My hunting buddies and stuff who spent a lot of time in the woods and things I think between we’ve seen two bobcats in 30 years. And so I’d ask people, “Okay, you’ve seen a mountain lion three times. How many bobcats you’ve seen in your life?” “None.” Or “One.” I go, “Well, guess what? Mountain lions are 100 times more scarce than bobcats and even more wary.” So guess what I think this is…
Tyson: Well, we got mountain lions. We got mountain lions here in the Blue Mountains. The US Navy used to keep the cubs as mascots and they got a bit too big when over here, so they let them loose. So we’ve got mountain lions running around on the Blue Mountains or in Australia.
Jim: Interesting. I bet they love eating them sheep over there, but anyway…
Tyson: I don’t know. You’d have to verify that though. I don’t know if it’s [inaudible 00:06:21] tail number or not.
Jim: Yeah. Here’s a lot of [inaudible 00:06:24] club. Anyway, but just back to the little green men, DMT, why they all say the same thing? Well of course there’s one argument is, “Oh, this is a pipeline to some deeper universal truth.” My guess is that’s horseshit that rather it’s a shared narrative and I have an actually empirical tests that we can find out if it’s pure horseshit or not. This is probably unethical in anthropological terms, but you know, let’s go to the…
Tyson: At least it’s empirical.
Jim: At least it’s empirical, maybe unethical but what the fuck? Go to the Amazon, find one of these never contacted tribes and dose the motherfuckers with DMT and see what they say.
Tyson: Yeah. You could do that?
Jim: My guess is they don’t see little green men and they specifically don’t seem computer elves. They’ll see something that’s appropriate to their culture and something that’s consistent with their narratives is my guess. Could be wrong, I think it would be very… Now if I’m wrong and you went to a non contacted people or minimally contacted people had them try DMT. And they said, exactly the same thing as the Silicon Valley boys, then I’d say, “Mm-mm (negative).” Maybe I’s wrong and they’re right.
Tyson: The weird thing is that you will find that story. And it’s an old story because every people in the world has got those little people stories. Those little people stories when you go back through them, it’s exactly the same as the UFO abduction stories, the bloody tall grays and the short bloody whatevers they’re all there. You look at them everywhere, even here. We’ve got those little people stories except they’re red. They’re red here.
Jim: You got red ones?
Tyson: Yeah, we got red ones. They haven’t popped up on YouTube yet.
Jim: My Irish grandmother had me quite convinced and I’m sure she was convinced in the existence of leprechauns when I was five years old.
Tyson: Oh, don’t go out into the fucking fairy ring. They’ll take it.
Jim: Exactly.
Tyson: Yeah. You got to leave shit out on certain nights of the year on your doorstep and all that. I heard that.
Jim: Yeah. Even despite the fact being sort of a ridiculously devout Catholic she also had a certain amount of the Irish pagan myths about her as well. Which is interesting. But so to the degree that these things speak to cultural archetypes sure. And that cultural archetypes are shared across all of humanity at some level probably. But-
Tyson: And Homo floresiensis is a thing.
Jim: Yeah?
Tyson: Empirically.
Jim: Yeah. Definitely not Homo sapien seems more closely related to Homo erectus.
Tyson: Yeah. But Homo floresiensis the little Hobbit ones in Indonesia. They got the full skeletons, that’s a thing. So there must’ve been some little people running around at some stage.
Jim: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Of course they weren’t that little, they were like three and a half, four foot tall, they were about hobbit size. There is a smaller nose, but they weren’t like leprechauns or jabali. A foot tall.
Tyson: About alien/machine elf size I reckon.
Jim: So anyway, there’s my take on it. Probably UFO syndrome where the story is in the air and then people start believing it when you’re doing hallucinogens, which I have done a fair number of times back in my misspent youth. Though, not in the last 40 some years.Yeah. We saw all kinds of weird shit and talk about all kinds of weird stuff.
Tyson: That’s the next story I wanted to ask you about because you casually threw that out, talking to Jamie Wheal and you just casually said that you were the minister of finance for cocaine ring. Just mentioned that, just a little.
Jim: True that.
Tyson: I need to hear that story.
Jim: In my misspent youth?
Tyson: Do cocaine rings have ministers of anything? What the hell? Did that work?
Jim: Somebody had to enumerate the legumes.
Tyson: So everything could be quantified then, I feel better.
Jim: Yeah. Well let me say like, anything else a cocaine ring that’s well-run will operate better than one that isn’t.
Tyson: Yeah. We save for that fairy ring in Ireland at least.
Jim: But again, that was in my misspent youth in my early 20s, and I’m glad those days are passed and somehow I didn’t get either arrested or killed. Had plenty of opportunities for either actual.
Tyson: It’s a damn miracle.
Jim: It’s a fucking miracle. It’s quite remarkable that any of us made it past our 20s, at least in my hometown. And frankly, a lot of them didn’t.
Tyson: At least, I mean, if your name was like Jamal or something, you might’ve not got through.
Jim: True that, true that though. I will say our cops were fairly in discriminant head beaters. Maybe they beat you a little more if you were a dusky fellow but they whack anybody over the head. And so you had to watch your shit around the infamous Prince George’s County, Maryland Police. I mean, they were famously bad, they hated everybody. He didn’t. And I do believe they hated the dusky fallow, a tad more, but they fucked with everybody and you kept your distance and you were very respectful. “Yes, sir. Yes, sir. No, sir. No, sir.”
Tyson: Equally distributed state violence. That’s what we should be aiming for.
Jim: Yeah. Yeah. They were about as bad as cops get in the United States. That’s saying something of all these things we’ve learned about over policing. One of the things that interestingly people don’t talk about quite so much is what’s really fucked up about US policing as compared to other countries. Our cops are vastly more homicidal in a typical year, US cops kill 1000 people. It’s a fair number. How many people you think are killed by cops in Germany? It was a population of a hundred million or so the answer is about 10. So if you scaled Germany up to the size of the United States, it’d be about 35. So the US cops are about 30X, 30 times as homicidal as German cops. How can that be? I mean-
Tyson: Germany everyone’s running around with guns.
Jim: Yeah. That’s part of it. That’s certainly a part of it. They have knives and a significant number of people shot in the US are bearing knives or a small percentage, no weapons at all. But if you throw the knives in, I have to do that number, take a look because there’s a very cool database on the Washington Post website about police killings and it tells if they’re armed. I don’t know if it says guns or knives but I think even if you control for guns US cops are many times more homicidal than say German cops.
Tyson: They should do some an exchange or something with Australia because I’m sure our police here can teach them a thing or two. So my community’s got more deaths in custody than South Africa at the height of apartheid at the moment. So yeah, so we got some proper really effectively genocidal police in Australia too, they’re getting it done. But I don’t know most of them you meet are really nice sort of people.
Jim: I should know, I’m from a cop family. My dad was a Washington DC cop for his career. My brother was a career federal law enforcement fair bad-ass with ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement. And one of my favorite cousins was a career cop within the notorious Prince George’s County, Maryland police. So it’s not-
Tyson: Bashing in all heads equally.
Jim: Exactly. So I be knowing the cops from the inside, but I do think there’s something seriously wrong with the level of policing that we have. David Graeber who recently died, great man, great thinker. One of his best books was called The Utopia of Rules. He basically laid out the fact that we’re stuck in this unbelievable web of, what he called structural violence. That essentially even though it’s not active violence, most of the time, there’s all this infinite number of rules and regulations. And if you violate them, they’ll come and kill you if you resist. Literally you don’t pay your taxes and they come to confiscate your house to pay your tax bill. If you won’t leave your house, they can and will kill you. And I think part of getting from where we are to where we need to be as a humanity is to massively reduce the number of things that the po-po can come and kill you about. It’s just wrong.
Tyson: That’s it. Well it’s incentive systems but we’ll get into that after.
Jim: Yup. Yup. Anyway, one of the things that we want to chat a little bit about as you sent me a very interesting and strange essay, I don’t know if it’s done yet. Are you still working on seem pretty polished to me, but as always with Tyson, there’s some works of art in language which are just inspiring. And this has got to be one of my favorite sentences I’ve heard in a while, I guess that every man loves Occam’s razor until it’s time to shave his balls. [inaudible 00:16:01] on that one for me.
Tyson: I mean, all these phones are out there. The data doesn’t care about your feelings, the data doesn’t lie and they just, well, let’s just look at the statistics. So they just cherry pick a couple of bits and it’s as simple as that. But yeah, I often find that those same men when the data goes against them particularly around stuff about male violence or anything that pretty much makes men look bad then straight up, they’ll be going on. “No, it’s a little more complex than that.” There’s this complexity there, you need context, we need context for this. There’s no doubt of that story anyway, so it just made me laugh.
Jim: Yeah. It’s easy.
Tyson: These guys are always applying our Occam’s razor until it’s time to shave that balls.
Jim: That is like it’s so fucking true. As you said, when I read that, I go, “Fuck, I know I’m guilty of it.” I’m a fair arch empiricists but I’m sure that I am biased when it comes to shaving my own balls. If I don’t try really hard I end up shading the story and it’s like maybe that’s what they should tattoo on everybody’s hand. I guess every man loves Occam’s razors until it’s time to save his own balls as a warning.
Tyson: So I think straight up, that’s the first quote I mean, obviously this is not as serious as… This is, I don’t know, some [inaudible 00:17:48] from like Guggenheim something, I think somewhere in Europe that they sent me an email said, “Can you write us an essay for a, I don’t know, someone exhibition they’re doing.” And I was starting to type out, “No, I haven’t got time to do that.” And then I thought, “Oh, I can just bash something out in 10 minutes.” We’ll see what falls out on the keyboard and it was just this insane kind of collage of weird bits and pieces. I ended up pretty much just I don’t know, making a bunch of jokes about my engagement pretty much with since making GameB crowd. I mean, from my point of view, I don’t know if that came across in there very much, but it sure made me laugh.
Jim: Oh, absolutely. In fact let me read the next bit that I called out. And I definitely took that as Tyson and Counters, sensemakers, GameB and GameB and [inaudible 00:18:40]. And I go chaos and complexity, institutions and decentralization, generator functions we know who likes to say that. Perverse incentives, bad and good faith discourse, destruction or survival, survival, survival. I wonder when that steel man inhabits, my palatable ambiguously nonwhite form. Does it see survival in there? What does that survival look like? Is it some bear grill’s shit, or is it a blonde girl living with a cognitively diverse caveman? We know who that is. Until she gets kicked out for getting too good with a slingshot. Certainly it’s a nightmare fight or flight. My kind coming in the night with spears, or my kind internally hypervigilant out on the Savannah hunted constantly by super predators. And you never know where they are and life is brutish and horrible, and that’s our brains and social systems evolved, right? I love it.
Tyson: It all just kind of fell out of my head.
Jim: No. I loved it. Again, I can just see it. So talk a little bit about your encounter with the sense-making community and the GameB community and all the rest of us whackadoodles.
Tyson: Well yeah. I’m finding not whackadoodles, I’m finding people making more sense than most of the people I’m encountering on the planet in terms… Not in terms of individuals, but in terms of groups. A lot of groups and ideologies and things like that they just don’t make any sense at all. I think it’s because you don’t have like a unified ideology, like you actively resisting having a dogma or something like that. So it kind of allows for some kind of diversity of thinking in there, and even diversity of membership that would even embrace somebody like me. To the point where there’s this so many ideas in the mix that it’s…
Tyson: I don’t know, it’s beautifully chaotic and allows for emergence to happen. Kind of almost demands that nothing be sort of designed, unless it is emergent within the complexity. And I don’t know, I’m kind of loving it. At the same time I’m just liking the banter. I can take the piss out of Jamie Wheal about integral theory and just even what I think it’s pretty awesome integral theory. I can still just take the piss out of it and then we’re like back and forth. I like nobody gets buttered over anything. There’s not like thin skin and sensitivity and everybody can just kind of play. Yeah, I’m just really enjoying it.
Jim: I’m glad you’re finding it good, we certainly enjoy your contribution. Tyson is active on the GameB site, that’s game-b.org for those who would be interested in hanging out and shooting the breeze with the GameB crowd.
Tyson: I’m hoping now with The Consilience Project too with going through some papers with Zach Stein and playing around with that. Yeah, I’m having a ball in there.
Jim: Yeah, that’s a wonderful project. In fact, I just released a podcast the other day with Daniel Schmachtenberger, where the whole focus was on the GameB pro… I mean on The Consilience Project. I’ve been an advisor to The Consilience Project since the beginning or near the beginning and it’s one of my favorite things going on right now. And for people want to see what these folks are producing consilienceproject.org, a new attempt to produce a form of something new and different kind of an amalgam of journalism and education at a very high quality of rigor and theoretical consistency. That’s very unusual today. Daniel’s a very serious dude but if it was Jim Rott doing this, I’d call it nobullshit.com or something.
Tyson: I mean, I see Jamie in the paper too but I don’t say his full name but I say he’s got a brain like a planet and I mean it. It’s like he can look and see where things are going to go. And he knows that something like this will end up being an institution that will be corrupted. So he makes sure it has a lifespan. He makes sure that it’s not going to live for more than five years. So like after five years itself terminates, it’s just I don’t know. I really like that.
Jim: Yeah, that was brilliant. In fact, in one of my roles there as I’ve been playing CEO coach with him and one of our calls, he just threw this out. He says, “I’ve had this very radical idea. What happens if after five years we shoot the puppy?” And I said, “That’s either brilliant or mad. Let me think on it overnight.” And the next morning I woke up and sent him a message. I said, “I have concluded that it is brilliant.” And everyone that heard it, that was their initial reaction, “This is either nuts or brilliant.” And most of us came around to the view. It was brilliant because it gets rid of so many bad incentives. And as you point out, it also makes it not worth capturing at some level.
Tyson: Well, I’d like to see that in all automation, I’d like to see that AIs would have been given the gift of mortality. You know, that after 70 years they die.
Jim: It might even be shorter than that. Because they live faster. Clocks [inaudible 00:24:45] so fast. Maybe you say, “Once you have done a three quadrillion calculations, you must die.”
Tyson: Brilliant. Because I’m worried about the [inaudible 00:24:56] like you, you made that little AI idea, like run around and avoid all on its own there. Like forever for eternity. It’s a terribly cruel thing to do. What a horrible Godling you are. Jim Rutt shame on you for condemning that [inaudible 00:25:15] self torment.
Jim: Unfortunately, I don’t let it run. That’s a sick idea. I could put it up on the cloud and let it run all the time. But fortunately I only run it very occasionally.
Tyson: All right. And then the rest of the time, it’s just in their like this dreamless sleep.
Jim: Yeah. It’s kind of like what the Catholic limbo or something. I don’t know.
Tyson: Okay. I kind of just imagined this thing. Just run around a server going like, “Mommy, mommy. Is there anybody out there. I want to eat some fucking grass.”
Jim: Think a Pink Floyd playing, “Is there anybody out there?” Oh, dear. Now back to your essay, and again, this is the theme you and I had a whole podcast about, which is well, I’ll give you the punchline when we’re done. Again, but I just want to read the words because I love the words. I guess that’s what the future is to me, it’s a janitorial position, 1000 years of making our land livable again and patiently bringing former settlers back under the law of the land. It’s not quite survival and it’s not quite deliverance. Although there may be some banjos and bow hunting involved it’s Survivance. Here, you’re talking I think about your brilliant idea of humanity as the custodial [inaudible 00:26:36].
Tyson: Yeah. Well that was, that word Survivance, that was the theme that they gave me. “Can you write us an essay on Survivance?” And I looked it up and I think a native American fellow invented it, but he left the definition kind of open.
Jim: Never heard of it myself.
Tyson: Sounded like a linguistic culture jam to me like an art project or inventing a word and putting it out in the world without definition. Yeah. So they wanted me to define what I thought that would be.
Jim: Again, remind our folks it’s a janitorial position, which strikes me very much in the same spirit as custodial species.
Tyson: Yeah. Well that’s what we’re going to be doing. When we’re making the next game, what we’re making is not a permanent thing. It’s a cultural transition. It’s a bit like The Consilience Project. It’s something temporary that has a limited lifespan. And I guess, all of the cultures and systems that arise out of the [inaudible 00:27:41] of this one. And blood and guts, I think there’ll be blood and guts, but I hope they won’t be, but they usually is. But yeah, these cultures that arise there’ll be for quite a long time, there’ll be cultures of transition. There won’t be permanent cultures. There’ll be just be the way we’re going to need to live while we clean everything up and figure stuff out. I don’t know what to do with these radioactive cores in all the abandoned Arctic and Antarctic bases, for example. Apparently we’ve got 100 years before they wreak havoc on the well, there’s about 1000 of those things to take care of and then we’re probably going to have to get onto it shortly.
Jim: Yep. As I talk about regularly you can argue about GameA, but it did provide some amazing transition in the standards of living and liberation for a lot of people, not for everybody as we know, and as we’re trying to work through today. But GameA was born with no breaks, like a car with no brakes and a powerful motor. And it’s just going faster and faster and faster. The motors keep getting replaced with bigger and bigger motors, but nobody puts any breaks in the motherfucker. And that seems to me the fundamental problem.
Jim: And we’re now so far overshot what ma nature can tolerably accept in terms of abuse that we do have some extended period of time where the main job of humanity is to get back in balance with the law of the land. You know, I love to point out that of the large animal mass on earth. You don’t say anything that from a squirrel on up call that large mammal more than half of the mass is humans that are domestic animals. That’s not good. And when it comes to birds, it’s even worse. 85% of the mass of birds on earth are our domestic poultry. That is scary to me.
Tyson: That’s horrifying, isn’t it?
Jim: Most of it, the… Not most of it but a good part of it, those horrendous factory farms where the animals can’t even turn around, they cut their beaks off. So they won’t peck each other and they can’t even live as animals at all. You know, at least cattle when they’re out grazing in the pasture, have a life sort of cattle ought to have, but factory poultry, not so good.
Tyson: I’ve heard it suggested that the best way to save endangered species is to turn them into pets or food.
Jim: That’ll save them but at what cost? We could do the same for humans, right?
Tyson: Well, when I first heard that the argument was, well always there’s a few of these things that escape and become feral so you can be guaranteed that those things would continue to exist, but it just sounds like given up to me.
Jim: Yeah. I agree. Though that reminds me, a little sidebar here, I didn’t put it in my notes. I want to ask you about that. Talk about feral and consider the species when my wife and I came back from spending some time around Christmas with our daughter and her husband and our brand new granddaughter. You’re talking to grandpa now. What should be at our remote mountain farm, but an emu.
Tyson: What?
Jim: Kid thee not. We come riding down the lane-
Tyson: Oh, they farm them there.
Jim: Nobody around here farms them. And we come down the lane and looking behind the garage at one of our [inaudible 00:31:32] on the way to our house. And what’s standing in the field but an… At first, it looked like a gigantic wild turkey but fortunately, a friend of my wife’s comes over to the farm and walks when we’re not there. Just keep an eye on things and because she likes to be able to walk unbothered by traffic or anybody. And she had already told us that she believed she’d seen an emu saw it wasn’t a total shock and Mr. Emu or Mrs. Emu.
Tyson: And you’re like, yeah. And a mountain lion and all the rest. Yeah. Blah, blah.
Jim: Yeah. But this one was what we saw dozens of times and it was around for a month. So there’s no doubt in our mind. I got pictures even.
Tyson: Jim that’s what we call us something.
Jim: What’s that mean?
Tyson: Yeah. And that’s the right question. What does that mean? That is a something that’s a sign. I swear that’s because we’ve been talking and I swear that’s because you were engaging so deeply with all [inaudible 00:32:30], ritual symbols there, and then you’re like, “Oh, it’s changed my DNA.” Looking at those things somehow. Like I know spirit’s not a substance that can yet be measured, but it’s there, it’s the thing in between the entanglement that has no distance it’s there. And yeah, we’ve got some things going on there. That’s a message. You’re going to have to sit with that emu now. But I guess what could it mean in terms of the story that we’ve been telling about emu? It could be like a warning, watch out for the narcissist. So was something.
Jim: It is strange.
Tyson: [inaudible 00:33:23] but he now wait so, well, my title is brolga and the emu and the brolga are always fighting because the brolga steals.
Jim: I guess that means we’re going to have a brawl here, right?
Tyson: Yeah. The broker steals all the children, steals all the eggs. That’s a funny one. That’s weird because a couple of months back, someone in America, I can’t remember who, but she interviewed me for a podcast and her parents own an emu farm. Emu farm [inaudible 00:33:56] some where. I’m like, that blew my mind. I didn’t know other people, I knew you had millions of gumtrees over there to drain your swamps in that, but I didn’t know you had emus that’s huge. Yeah. But that’s a something, Jim that’s something going on. That’s a sign there, that’s a message from spirit for you. I can’t interpret it because I didn’t see what it was doing.
Jim: Basically just acted like a wild animal. It pecked around in the grass. It kind of followed the deer. We have lots of deer and we believe it was eating the deer droppings. And it came into our yard while we were gone. And we can tell where it was by the big lush plots of grass that grew up around its droppings. Because it had some impressive droppings. It’s an 85 pound animal or thereabouts and 40 kilos or something.
Tyson: Here’s what you got to do. You can put out something shiny that’ll flap in the wind. It will come up to it.
Jim: Oh, he’s gone now.
Tyson: Oh, he’s gone now? [crosstalk 00:35:01] I was going to tell you how to catch it. If you go out there and you sort of lie down and you just kick up the dust, the curious bastards, the emus, and they’ll come over. They’ll come over to you and you can knock them there. You should track that one down, it’s really good meat.
Jim: Yeah. It’s funny. We talked to the game warden and she checked with other people around and they said, “Yeah. Well, there’ve been a report of an emu about 40 miles South.” I guess that would be how many kilometers? 60, 70 kilometers South of us. Several months before, probably the same one. Maybe it escape from an emu farm far away and it was around for about a month and we saw it every day or almost every day.
Tyson: Poor thing.
Jim: And then unfortunately we had fairly heavy snow, call it six inches. And the last time we saw emu it walked right by our house, maybe 20 yards from the house, 20 meters from the house for all you nine yanks. And it looked unhappy plodding the way they walk, they plod kind of through the six inches of snow and then it kind-
Tyson: Oh, my God. In the snow? Poor thing.
Jim: And it headed off.
Tyson: And He’s all alone. He’s lonely like [inaudible 00:36:19] no idea.
Jim: It’s got a suck, right? Because we saw him plod off towards the deep woods and the deep mountains. Because our farm was right at the edge of 16,000 acres of game commission land, which is open hunting land, deep mountains, heavy woods and it headed off that way. And that was the last we ever saw of it. We don’t know if it got eaten by a coyote or if it froze to death.
Tyson: Or a mountain lion.
Jim: No mountain lion. I don’t think maybe a UFO abducted it but that was the last we saw Mr. or Mrs. Emu as it plodded off into the woods, not looking happy and in the snow.
Tyson: Jim, well that’s a sad story. So I don’t know. What’s that telling you? What are you feeling from that?
Jim: Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know.
Tyson: All right. Well, just picture that emu and then do your ego death thing and then see what, see what pops in your head after that?
Jim: Well, I just did my ego death thing and nothing popped into my head.
Tyson: No one word?
Jim: The weird thing about the ego death thing is I have no memorance at all. What happened when I did it?
Tyson: Yeah. So you just come charge and straight out of it saying, “I just did ego death and nothing happened.”
Jim: What it does tend to do is kind of mellow me out for about 20 minutes. So if I am talking a little bit more slowly, it’s kind of the after buzz of the five, second ego death.
Tyson: Wow, that’s remarkable. It is terrifying what you’re doing?
Jim: What did it look like?
Tyson: It looked like one of those porcelain dolls in the shop like looks like they’re falling around with their eyes.
Jim: A little house of horrors.
Tyson: Maybe that’s the thing. Maybe it’s just directing your attention to that. That there’s more to be seen there because your understanding of emu was about the message of the story about narcissism, right?
Jim: Yep. That’s right. And from Sand Talk.
Tyson: And if you’re talking about ego and ego death and your absolute assertion that there’s nothing else that there’s nothing to be seen there. There’s nothing to be found in that world that it’s just like we’re just biological machinery and that’s it maybe it’s just it’s not saying that’s real, but maybe that’s just saying well there’s more to be found by thinking about that.
Jim: And while it is true that I am at the pretty far extreme of scientific realist, I’m not quite absolutely sure. I always leave the opening that gentlemen I was wrong. And I’m always looking for signs that I’m wrong, right? Because truthfully an enchanted universe will be much more interesting than a mechanical universe.
Tyson: Well look, 99% of spirituality is just walking around, looking for signs anyway. So you’re already doing it.
Jim: Yeah. That’s what I’m looking for signs, I haven’t seen any. So I’m not quite absolute. I’m just pretty far over on the realer side, but I’m always trying to keep an open mind and open eyes to see, but that’s a very interesting point. I will meditate on Mr. Emu or Mrs. Emu, he or she and see what comes up.
Tyson: Let’s build a data set. What are you going to record, measure, observe for that? Because we just basically did a little bit of research there like we tested them.
Jim: Nothing showed up. Now-
Tyson: Live on the podcast here, we would test that Emu sign with your ego death.
Jim: Yeah. And that’s no surprise. This is a very uncommon frame then it come from the short ego death. Now meditation, however will often bring stuff back. And so I will do one of my meditations and prime it with-
Tyson: Ah, see if that works.
Jim: With emu and see if see what comes of it.
Tyson: Yeah. Because with the ego death, you’d probably have to do any equals 100 ego deaths and see what happens there. Then you’d have to have a control. [inaudible 00:40:53] can do that too.
Jim: I don’t know. Nothing much comes back either ego death, other than a general systems rejiggering, which is good in itself of course. It’s kind of like back in the days when I used to smoke, marijuana, you’ve heard of that stuff probably. I used to smoke it for a one purpose, about every six weeks I’d smoke the shit out of it. Not just take a few puffs. I mean get nailed and the reason was to break the cycle of the ordinary thinking and get out of the box. And I find the little ego death thing to be useful in that same way. Don’t bring anything back, but like breaking the cycles that were stuck in the everyday so easy to get caught up and following, so I used to say, follow your nose through life. That’s probably not the way to live.
Tyson: I’ve had to avoid that one because we get different ganja like they say, there’s white people’s ganja. And then there’s the ganja of that we get in our communities. And a lot of it somebody would, I’ve tried to track the supply chain and I’m not sure who it is that gives it to the bikeys, but somebody is producing the Aboriginal communities ganja and giving it to the bikeys. And then the bikeys weirdly, like they’ll distribute it through a whole heap of like different mentoring programs and stuff like that. That’s supposed to be helping people. And then they like they give it to the kids who are mules, who bring it into the community, there’s a lot of weird stuff that goes on, but the ganja that we get, it’s kind of like a rat poison and stuff like that in it and it’s terrible. Yeah, so I’ve kind of stayed away from it mostly.
Jim: Me too I haven’t-
Tyson: But I’ve given it a shot, since moving to the city and yeah, no good. Like I couldn’t maintain any kind of logic. Like I could never finish a thought and it just terrified me, but I guess it did teach me how attached I am to my logic or how I might be putting it on a pedestal or something, because I almost couldn’t live without that. I really panicked and I was like, “Oh shit, I can’t finish a thought.”.
Jim: Of course that’s not unusual. That’s one of the reasons I actually liked getting baked occasionally was that it did toss one off the rationalist pedestal for a bit. Of course again when we were younger, I’m sure you probably did the same thing. You wrote down your great thoughts while stoned, right next morning, you read it and you go, “This sounds like a crack of shit.” So I never thought that it produced useful insights, but rather breaking the cycle of excess dependent on rationality. It wasn’t a bad thing to do for 45 minutes or an hour.
Tyson: Jim Wheal’s always talking up the nitrous and he talks about people having the sense of having understood everything, “Oh my God. I see everything, everything little is a little version of everything big. It’s amazing.” And then they come back across and, “Oh, it’s all gone.” They can’t remember a thing. But he ended up talking for like about I don’t know, an hour and a half with my woman. She was telling him all about her nitrous experience during childbirth and she remembered it. She brought everything back. And so she told him all of that story.
Jim: Yeah. In fact, I told my own nitrous and ether stories.
Tyson: I don’t know what ether is. I thought that was a cryptocurrency or something. What the hell was that?
Jim: What they used to use for anesthesia back in the 19th and early 20th century.
Tyson: Ah, yeah.
Jim: I just released an episode with Jamie where we talked about his new book and I ended up telling tales of nitrous and ether. Ether produces a similar mental experience to nitrous, but it lasts longer and goes deeper. And again, I when you come back from it you do have ideas but kind of like marijuana, they don’t necessarily make a shit load of sense. So it’s kind of an interesting thing to do though I haven’t done any in 45 years and I would not recommend it. It’s probably dangerous. But it’s kind of shit, stupid ass college students do. And we did it quite a bit both nitrous and ether. We used to buy these 64 pound tanks, big old tanks and me and some buddies of mine. And what we do is we would sell people the nitrous apparatus for a dollar, which was a garbage bag, big garbage bag 25 gallon garbage bag with a surgical hose in it, and then taped up. And then for 25 cents, they could refill their garbage bag with nitrous, put the hose in their mouth and put their arm over it like a bag pipe player, and squeeze the bag gradually and nitrous themselves for a while. And then when they were done, they could give us 25 cents and refill their bags. So that was kind of cool.
Tyson: You just always been doing business are you?
Jim: Oh yeah, in fact. Yeah. One of my first businesses was buying people’s souls when I was about 11 years old and had recently become an arch atheist, had rejected my childhood Catholicism. And I discovered, I don’t remember how that wonderful business was to offer people a dollar for their soul. A dollar in those days was a fair amount of money.
Tyson: [inaudible 00:46:39] let’s believe in fasting, that’s like really shitty.
Jim: You’re going to get to the punch line, the business angle. Here, I was the private equity dude of souls. Because I’d write a little thing… I, blah, blah, sell my soul to Jim Rutt for $1. I give him the dollar.
Tyson: Would you then sell it on?
Jim: No, no. No, I’d sell it back to them. Because inevitably… I’d sell it back to them for $3.
Tyson: Or they go home and tell their parents and they get in trouble.
Jim: Or they would just start thinking about it. “Oh fuck. I just sold my soul, that motherfucker, Jim Rutt.” And then, a week or so later, they’d say, “What are you going to do with that soul?” “I don’t know, but I own it.” And you know, I’d just be kind of cryptic about the whole thing then. And then about the second time they’d ask, I say, “Well I’d be happy to sell it back to you.” “Really? What? You’d sell it back to me. Oh yeah, sure. $3.” They often come up with the three bucks so it was definitely a moneymaker.
Tyson: [inaudible 00:47:42] I tell you, there’s going to be YouTube videos about you after this one. You’re definitely anti-Christ now they looking, everybody’s looking to see who it’s going to be. I think it’s just a true dog. Anyway, now as Jim Rutt. Been buying people’s soul since he was a kid.
Jim: Unfortunately, I didn’t extend that business beyond seventh grade, but it was a nice little racket at the time.
Tyson: Oh yeah. It moved into IT.
Jim: Yeah. Same thing.
Tyson: You extract all this also another way, Damon.
Jim: Facebook [inaudible 00:48:22] now there is something that really is sucking our souls, dry goddamn Facebook. You know, as my friend Tristan Harris would say, it’s using computers more powerful than those, that beat Garry Kasparov playing for the chess championship to basically turn our own behaviors against us. To turn us into a commodity to sell advertising to us, to modify our behavior. I mean, if that isn’t pretty close to selling our souls to the devil, I don’t know what is.
Tyson: I heard this fellow talking about NFTs and he’s talking about where it’s going to go. And he was really excited. You know, he was like, God it’s going to be so for everything. And you know, everywhere we show up at everything, dude, it’ll be like these tokens and you get these there’ll be loyalty tokens. And this is how we’re going to do the universal basic income, it will be like you get paid in these NFT tokens for the amount of eyeball hours you do. But the tokens, they won’t be money. What they’ll be? Is they’ll be like a… It basically sounded to me just like coupons, the coupons you get like two for one deal at 20% off or something like that. It just would basically just go to the entire economy is just going to be rewards like loyalty, loyalty points and rewards just sounds awful.
Jim: Yeah It sounds to me like, what we have now, but made worse, just letting the computer play us like a fucking piano.
Tyson: Yeah. I’m really dependent I need to sort of this GameB.
Jim: Yeah, [inaudible 00:49:57] working on it.
Tyson: Finished the game. Hey there, Jim, I wanted to ask you I mean, what’s it going to take for you to get this jubilee ratchet going?
Jim: Ah, that we got to wait for…
Tyson: Debt jubilee ratchet.
Jim: The jubilee or the debt jubilee ratchet. If want to read about the jubilee ratchet the original website for our old Mansa Patient Party is still up mansapatientparty.org, where we go into considerable detail on how to destroy modern capitalism through the jubilee ratchet.
Tyson: But what’s it going to take? What would provoke you to do it? Is it like someone’s going to spray paint a big dick and balls on Abraham Lincoln statue or something. What’s it going to take? Because I’ll do it.
Jim: Okay. Well those of us who concocted the jubilee ratchet believe that it is indeed the best memetic weapon that any of us have ever seen and could indeed bring the end to GameA fairly rapidly. Though by my calculation, it would take 11 years, but still that’s pretty short. However, the timing has to be right and the timing is not yet right though it may not be too long before it is right.
Tyson: Damn. It’s just the same as all the other rapture ideologies, Jim you just disappointed me. And it was like, “Ah, not yet any minute now. Jesus will come soon.”
Jim: Jesus.
Tyson: Jesus is coming. Christmas is coming jubilee ratchet is coming.
Jim: Jesus isn’t coming, but he is breathing hard, right?
Tyson: Fuck me.
Jim: And you know how an atheist lights a cigarette, don’t you?
Tyson: Oh, Jesus. You’re going to have to edit this one out.
Jim: Hold a cigarette over his head and says, “God sucks.”
Tyson: [inaudible 00:51:48] Oh Jesus.
Jim: So yeah, jubilee ratchet, let’s keep that discussion going. Because at some point letting that off the leash probably should be done. But you know, it’s a very dangerous weapon. It can have a huge effects and we need to have enough of GameB up and running. So that there’s a place for GameA to go to as it collapses over about 11 year period.
Tyson: Right. Yeah, I got you. So it’s about getting the enough communities and like food sovereignty groups, cops, whatever like enough systems in place that it could be relatively bloodless, I suppose.
Jim: That’s the hope, that’s what I call the long road to GameB I believe there’s a long road to GameB. Like I laid out in my essay, a journey to GameB where it naturally evolves over a period of years. And we seduce people away from A to B because B is a better place to live. It’s materially probably less advanced because we will have intentionally said, “We don’t want this shit or that shit or the other shit.” And we don’t want to live in a world where our status is based on our possessions. We want to live in a good world and in fact, we’re just getting ready to launch some of these communities. There’s a thing we have called the ProtoB incubator and there’s probably 15 or 20 projects underway to build on the ground communities attempting to live together in a more modest way.
Jim: We opened up talking about your bazillionaire, who wants peace love and wheat germ, he doesn’t want to give up his Maserati. We acknowledge the fact that we have to give up our Maseratis and our 200 pairs of shoes and all this stuff. By the best estimate I’ve seen if we’re going to have a sustainable way of life, the West, fat, dumb and happy white man with a Maserati, he’s got to cut our energy consumption and resource utilization by at least 80% factor of five big cut. And if you’re not willing to do that, you’re just bullshitting around.
Tyson: Yeah. That’s it.
Jim: So we’re looking to launch some communities that are designed at a scale that they’re either at or close to in the learning curve and get us the rest of the way to a level of living with the earth that is actually sustainable for billions of people.
Tyson: Well, look did manage to radicalize an Aboriginal group over here recently towards a GameB.
Jim: Really?
Tyson: And two I was actually establishing a GameB intentional community.
Jim: If they would like to become a member of our ProtoB incubator. We’d be happy to have them.
Tyson: I’ve linked everything up in there. And they’re looking at, you know Mike and UV at Future Thinkers as well.?
Jim: Yep.
Tyson: They’ve hooked up with them too. And they’re really looking into the whole thing looking at doing that within the next year.
Jim: Cool.
Tyson: So a friend of mine, Billy [inaudible 00:55:01] woman who got her all at medical degrees and everything, and then was going to be working as a doctor in a community to help the community. And she’s been doing that for a couple of years. And then she called me up the other day and she was like, Oh, stuff. All I’m doing is putting band-aids on the problem. The problems is how the other communities are set up. I can’t look after the health of people in a community that’s designed to kill them. I want to stop my own community. Have you ever heard of anyone doing that? And I said, well, as a matter of fact, and then three hours later, she said, she’s got a business plan written the next day. She’s sending me all these mission statements and all kinds of things. She’s really getting everything together. So it’s huge.
Jim: Yep. If you don’t mind hook me up with her, I’d love to invite her to the ProtoB incubator, Mike and UV’s project is one of our ProtoB incubator projects, but there’s a bunch of other ones.
Tyson: Yeah, definitely. Definitely I’ll introduce it with email because it’s just exciting because she’s a young woman, but she’s very keen to… Her idea is that it has to be grounded in the indigenous knowledge of the land that the entire design of everything from the economy to the kind of social mores and the governance of the entire community the buildings, everything else has to be grounded in those… They’ve got six [inaudible 00:56:46] seasons there. So everything has to be grounded in that seasonal relationship and the way the country moves there.
Jim: Yeah. I’d love to hear about that.
Tyson: So that it’s all coming out of the law of the land like that.
Jim: To your earlier point at the beginning or early on when you said, you wouldn’t think you liked about GameB. It was nice, not dogmatic not ideological. In fact, sometimes it’s a little frustrating. It’s hard to say what exactly is the GameB we believe the same about our ProtoB movement is that we don’t believe we’re smart enough, or anyone’s smart enough to say for sure what the answer is. And so we’re encouraging each ProtoB, to answer that exact list of questions themselves, what should their governance be? How should they produce on the land? What should their housing be like? And it may actually be that the answer is different in different places for different people, but all of them have to have some core values about living in balance with what ma nature will actually tolerate. Focusing on human actualization so that we can become something other than COGS in the machine of money, on money return in production, and we can spend… Wouldn’t it be great if people could spend time doing the kind of beautiful woodworking that you do for instance, right.
Jim: And if that was having space in that, in all of our lives to do what actually is our creative thing, and that’s just part of how we design, how we live, wouldn’t that be good?
Tyson: Yeah.
Jim: And so those, those are the things we think we have in common. And the terminology I use for that is coherent pluralism, that there’s a coherent core set of beliefs, but it’s as small as possible. And then that the pluralism part is that how groups of people choose to explore that within their geography, within their land base, within their previous customs and cultures is up to them. But we encourage, and that’s why we set up the ProtoB incubator is that there then be horizontal communications between the communities. So maybe this woman sets one up in Australia on her six principles works great.
Jim: Then someone who wants to start one in middle America says, “Well, I like four out of those six, let me include those in mine. And let’s see what happens.’ And it turns out, “Oh, shit.” Didn’t work because you’d need needed all six. Think of this as a high dimensional exploration of design space of how to live right in the GameB world. And hence we’d love the fact that people have specific ideas they want to explore and try and were very supportive and encouraging. But we’re not yet prepared to say that any one of them is the answer. And in fact, probably there is no the answer rather there’s a pluralistic exploration with a coherence around a small set of shared values, if that makes any sense.
Tyson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, there’s a basic blueprint, but then the culture of any community, it’s good. It’s going to be different from place to place. And that’s not just a random, some random selection thing that’s that the spirit of the place will shape the culture so you’re going to get a very different culture on a prairie than you’re going to get on stone country in high ground there in the mountains or something. The cultures that evolve at out of that close relation with the land and in those communities that are really listening to the landscape and paying attention to emu when he pops up and all that. Each place is going to have a different culture.
Jim: There’s nothing wrong with that. You know, that’s what I so hate about so much of our, call it alternative thinking out there is the people think they have the answer. And anyone that tells me they got the answer, you follow all this. You know, it’s kind of like Karl Marx. All this shit we inevitably leads to the wonderful world of the future utopia. Well, guess what happened when you tried that didn’t work so well, right?
Tyson: Yeah, exactly.
Jim: In fact, in the GameB world utopianism is actually an insult. People who think that there is some magic formula to the promised land that we’ve all figured out. And all we got to do is just do it is very, very dangerous and has led to one disaster after another. Probably the settlers that came to Australia because a lot of our prisoners but they probably had some utopian ideas. And yeah, we’ll Christianize those savages or whatever. It didn’t work out so well.
Tyson: Yeah. I’ve been talking to a protopian futurist lately.
Jim: What’s that?
Tyson: She kind of invented the word protopian. She didn’t like the idea of utopia or dystopia. She wanted to bring more of a sense of urgency to it so she’s calling it a protopia. What’s her name? Monica Bielskyte. She’s very cool. She does TED Talks and stuff, and gets people really excited about VR and the possibilities for VR and AR and all that kind of thing. Got a really amazing story. I think pretty much she’s really exciting. I had her on my podcast. I started one up a few weeks ago.
Jim: Oh, cool.
Tyson: I call it, the other others and yeah, I’ve got about 12 yards up there already. Anyway, she was one of them, it was about two and a half hours and went forever. It was really pushing out of limits of long form podcast. But yeah, she had a lot to say. Yeah, I’m finding her really interesting.
Jim: We’ll have to check her out. We’ll certainly put a link to her on the episode page for other people that want to hear what she has to say. Because I like that these idea that there is no fixed answer and it’s up to our own agency to figure it out as we go. And I expect that’s probably what she means. So let’s wrap up here. We got a lot more other things we could talk to we’d go on for hours. But in this current format, I try to keep it to an hour, a little over.
Tyson: Ah, that’s right. Yeah.
Jim: [inaudible 01:03:17] get you to wrap a little bit on I don’t know if it’s attention to the right word. But one of the things I loved about Sand Talk was that you take at least the two lens approach, the indigenous approach and the complexity approach. And you talked about on this podcast about the fact that you hate to be pushed off your rational, reasonable, irrational stool by bad dope, stuff like that. I think is very close to the real tension as we try to figure out the way forward. You know, we know that GameA has crazed money on money maximizing machine that has no brakes has probably more than outlived its usefulness and it’s time to do something else. On the other hand, when I put on a purely indigenous hat and say, “Right, am I really willing to give up antibiotics, solar energy, modern dentistry, Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones, what the fuck?” GameA produced a lot of stuff that was good.
Tyson: You didn’t mention anything in that list that I’d want to keep anyway.
Jim: Antibiotic?
Tyson: I don’t like the six months after I have it.
Jim: It was better than dying though.
Tyson: Might be good to get you through the painful bit, but you have a really shitty time after that.
Jim: Quite literally sometimes.
Tyson: Yeah. But there are other things we can use for that is… I mean, there’s all kinds of plants that we can use for that here. For the same things, I mean, depending on what kind of infection it is too, so it’s not just this bloody a bomb of antibiotics it depends. Is it is an infection in the blood? Is it in the bone? Is it in the skin? Is it systemic and just pumping some pumping up a problem here? Like in one little location or it’s all a little more complex than that. And I’m not a huge fan of any of these solutions that just cop it bumps everything into submission. I mean, the scientific method is a beautiful thing, but I’m not a fan of the variable way that that’s applied and in the pharmaceutical world you never know what you’re going to get there.
Jim: It’s true that they tend to be brute force. And as you say, when you do a serious course of antibiotics probably kills a good percentage of your gut flora, which is a big percentage of what you are actually about. And you probably aren’t right for a few months thereafter.
Tyson: Yeah. That’s it. And look, I don’t think moving away from having these massive, ridiculous weld, killing extractive systems means going back to some mythical, ridiculous picture of a primitive, past red in tooth and claw and all that sort of thing at all. That’s just not my experience of that world. And, things adapt and change all the time and I imagine that the cultures of transition that arise out of this world will look very different. But yeah, I’m really comfortable with cognitive dissonance, Jim, and I think that’s why I really enjoy my encounters with the GameB community because I think that pretty much, if I had to pick one thing that characterize everybody you were saying general principles. I think that’s one of them it’s to be comfortable with sitting with two conflicting ideas at once. To be able to sit with that easily without you feeling your heart rate increase without feeling like you’ve I got to spear you now or something because yeah… I’m really quite enjoying that.
Jim: Well, that’s cool. I’m going to wrap it right there. I think that’s a very interesting summary of where we’re at, which is we have all of us have many ideas and things that are influencing us. And that staying in cognitive dissonance right now is probably the right thing as we try to figure out what it means, or actually I’ll retract that. I’ve never tried to figure out what it all means. I try to figure out what’s the next reasonable step to move us in a better direction.
Tyson: And what’s useful?
Jim: What’s useful goddammit the right word, useful. All right. Tyson again, as always just a joy to talk with you. There are days when I say, “Man, how could it be that we’re… Is he my brother by a different mother or what?” But whenever I talk to you, I just feel like I know we disagree all kinds of shit. I don’t give two fucks about that. The fact that we somehow seem compatible at some special, higher level. I just love.
Tyson: Well there’s some highly unlikely thing going on because that emu has come around to your house. So something’s happening. We’ll keep exploring abreast.
Jim: Yep. I will meditate on that and I’ll let you know what I find out.
Production services and audio editing by Jared Janes Consulting. Music by Tom Muller at modernspacemusic.com.